Curse

Former Ruling · Sep 25, 2006, 02:06 AM // 02:06

To Gaile: This blatently shows the flaws in the Alpha testing program that PvP'ers have been bashing ever since before the last preview. You expect bugs in beta events, but stuff like this, or Dervish Way back in the other ones....Are things that SHOULD have been flattened out before these were even added to the preview. I wont go into here, but Alpha testers do talk about how it is, and mostly it is under testing, no reason for them to test, and PvE things like monster placement and stuff get more attention than skills and builds (this is them talking).

One thing, noone knows why Arenanet is so "Lock and throw away the key" about their testing. As we are told now by Alpha testers (Anet wont talk, so we gotta go on what they say) then its by invitation by other alpha testers only to alpha test. There are TONS of people that are better than these people, would be more active, and WANT to do stuff like this. I myself would probably like testing all the time i'm on guild wars...Just saying there are people that would do stuff.

You EXPECT bugs, its in beta, but this is like...DUHHHHH why didnt someone notice this (even more so with the Dervish thing last preview)...Its almost like you coded it and threw it right into the game..If you let the public as a whole find big things like this, you get threads like this one on Fan Sites, which is bad publicity for yall.

B Ephekt · Sep 25, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by dargon

Because of this violation, not only have these guilds been able to farm a huge amount of guild rank and HoH rank in a fairly short period of time, they have also been able to farm a rather large amount of faction and thus probably have managed to unlock every new skill in the game in just a few short hours.

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Kills maid with SoM yielded no faction, so the only faction a team using the exploit would gain is the faction received upon winning the match.

Former Ruling · Sep 25, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. Kills maid with SoM yielded no faction, so the only faction a team using the exploit would gain is the faction received upon winning the match.

The MAJORITY of faction gained form a GvG is from winning it.

500faction (+100 if its flawless) for a few minutes work if you win with this.

Or the ~200-300 faction you'd gain from 20 minutes worth of taking out members and NPCs.

His point being, they got more faction than usual. You are right it isnt enough to worry about, but you made it sound like winning a gvg gave you almost nothing.

B Ephekt · Sep 25, 2006, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

The MAJORITY of faction gained form a GvG is from winning it.

500faction (+100 if its flawless) for a few minutes work if you win with this.

Or the ~200-300 faction you'd gain from 20 minutes worth of taking out members and NPCs.

Yes, I 'm well aware of the faction gain in gvg. However, you can make more faction by simply running thump way as a lower-ranked guild than with this. And trying to faction farm in HA/TA/RA was pointless with this build. Not to mention that there is no way the exploiters "probably have managed to unlock every new skill in the game in just a few short hours."

The point is, don't post sensationalist bullshit when it's clearly nowhere near the truth.

Quote:

His point being, they got more faction than usual. You are right it isnt enough to worry about,but you made it sound like winning a gvg gave you almost nothing.

No, not really.

Colon's Fury · Sep 25, 2006, 02:28 AM // 02:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

I fail to see how this was an "exploit" the teams used skills that were there to be used.

Lets have a look at the evidence..

Did these "offending" guilds make the skills? No
Did they use a certain build to their advantage? Yup
Could the build be countered? Of course, anything can be countered IF you use that thing called a brain.
Should they be punished? Hell no, they used a viable build at the time
Is life fair? No

Wish I dealt with softies like you in the real world, I'd be even richer.

Dont like my opinion? Tough, some of you will get a big shock when you hit the real world away from mummy and daddy.

Hmm, so let's take a look at the EULA for a second. Oh, in the "Rules of Conduct" section, under 18, it states

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rules of Conduct

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com.

Now, I don't know about you, but the fact that a skill can kill the GL in 10 seconds doesn't really sound like the way the skill was meant to be used. So therefore, these "offending" guilds have used an exploit to their advantage which in turn is breaking the EULA, which brings the "possible" punishment of banning accounts. Now I say "possible" because with the widespread usage of this exploit and the limited effect it will have (if these guilds are only gaining rank because of an exploit, then things will settle down now that it has been fixed) makes banning everyone who used it practically impossible.

And yes, I do agree that life is not fair sometimes, but you can't say that these people who willfully and knowingly used an exploit, not once but numerous times, that is against the EULA should get off scot-free with no punishment what-so-ever. What kind of example does this set for the future? "Oh, if I exploit this bug that managed to slip through alpha testing (and sometimes these things do happen, since when is everyone perfect?), even though I am violating a document that I signed, who cares because Anet doesn't do anything?"

I think the real world has a response to this to: it's called if you violate the law you face criminal charges, in this case the law is Anet's EULA and the criminal charges have been set as the possibility of an account being banned.

Malice Black · Sep 25, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

They implemented the skill into the game, this so called "exploit" should be laid at Anets feet and not the guilds.

Also I fail to understand why it's so bad for the GL to go down quick, wouldn't this encourage more creative play by teams if they know the GL is under "true" threat? lets face it no one worries about the GL because he is nigh on impossible to solo correct? now that he is solo able this will show us who is truly a worthwhile team.

Perhaps this is too much of a challenge for the average GvG player?

Ellipson · Sep 25, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

They implemented the skill into the game, this so called "exploit" should be laid at Anets feet and not the guilds.

Also I fail to understand why it's so bad for the GL to go down quick, wouldn't this encourage more creative play by teams if they know the GL is under "true" threat? lets face it no one worries about the GL because he is nigh on impossible to solo correct? now that he is solo able this will show us who is truly a worthwhile team.

Perhaps this is too much of a challenge for the average GvG player?

Are you kidding? So GvG should turn into a "who can use the skill that instantly kills the GL first?" This is broken beyond belief, and makes a mockery of the tactics and depth you see in high level GvG.

Bans for the bigtime offenders would be easy to process, but beyond the major offenses, bans should be handled very carefully. A better solution would have been to lock the ladder during the weekend, but I read somewhere that that would lower the creativity to find these builds: this skill could have made it into final release without the ladder being open. Scary thought.

Malice Black · Sep 25, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Counter FTW?? Find a counter skill that renders the build useless, job done.

capblueberry · Sep 25, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by master_of_puppets

anet should stop hiring retards that cant even make skills work properly, the skill says "target allied summoned creature's attacks deal X more damage. After 10 seconds that creature is destroyed." so why the hell does it instantly kill enemies???????????????????????????????

omg they're testing the skill, so there's bound to be some bugs in it

people make mistakes, I'm sure anet will fix this and we can go on with our lives

its about impossible for testers to use every skill in every possible situation, thats why they have us, to check things for them

chill out

Ellipson · Sep 25, 2006, 03:00 AM // 03:00

Quote:

Signet of Might
Elite Signet. Target allied summoned creature's attacks deal 10...26 more damage. After 10 seconds, that creature is destroyed.

this skill is ruining ladder now, when you are reading my post. Some guilds (and their number will rise) are using this skill to destroy Guild Lord. This is how it works. Rt will create Union or other spirit, after this put signet of might on it and i dont know how, but after 10 seconds Guild Lord is DEAD (game probably thinks that Guild Lord is summoned creature or what...)

This is on the first page.

You really think something like this is good for GvG on a whole? Make it so each GvG build HAS to have at least 4 primary or secondary Rits for the purpose of killing the lord with a blatant bug? And the counter would be what? you would have to similarly bring 4+ interrupters to counter people's rits, and there goes any semblance of fun in GvG.

Malice Black · Sep 25, 2006, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Making the GL a "prime" target would be good for GvG.

Khift · Sep 25, 2006, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Gaile: About the ladder locks, I have always found that having a preview event during unlocked ladder was more of a discouragement towards GvG'ing than not. Quite simply my guild has decided both of these past preview events to not GvG during the event due to the high likelyhood of something extremely overpowered that we never expected coming along and tanking our rating. Thus far both times we've been proven right and are happy that we didn't spend time and energy GvG'ing.

The way I see it if the ladder was locked I would GvG impunitively and play with the new skills while at it. But for as long as they remain during unlocked ladder I don't foresee myself participating, at least in GvG.

Former Ruling · Sep 25, 2006, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Yes, I 'm well aware of the faction gain in gvg. However, you can make more faction by simply running thump way as a lower-ranked guild than with this. And trying to faction farm in HA/TA/RA was pointless with this build. Not to mention that there is no way the exploiters "probably have managed to unlock every new skill in the game in just a few short hours."

The point is, don't post sensationalist bullshit when it's clearly nowhere near the truth.No, not really.

Wow, Flame more >_>

Quote:

However, you can make more faction by simply running thump way as a lower-ranked guild than with this.

Nothing to do with my post, see below

Quote:

And trying to faction farm in HA/TA/RA was pointless with this build.

Nothing to do with my post, see below

Quote:

Not to mention that there is no way the exploiters "probably have managed to unlock every new skill in the game in just a few short hours."

Better not to mention it, because I agreed with you on that point, And it'd look weird if you brought it up again in defense against my post.

---------See Below Point------

My post said that yes his claimed about "so much faction to unlock stuff" was not true, but you implied that this exploit gave them no more faction than normal gyging, which was also untrue. Any outside use of this Signet, or other ways of Gvging have nothing to do with this point.

Kook~NBK~ · Sep 25, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I'd like to comment on something: Locking the ladder during the Beta Test sounds like a poor idea to me. During the events, we're able to have tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people try out the skills, reveal the exploits, and generally help us make a better game. They get the fun of an early look, and the interest of seeing how things are and, upon release, what they become.

To lock the ladder during an event sounds counterproductive to me. We want and need people playing PvP, and locking the ladder will discourage that.

Hmmm... maybe the answer is some sort of "event ladder" that has no impact on the overal system. So if you find an exploit, good job, but it's not going to give you a leg up on a championship or a fast run for a trophy.

I just don't see where locking the ladder is the best idea, for it seems that the number of people playing will drop dramatically, which means we'll have less testing and less feedback.

You're premise rests on the notion that during ladder locks the number of GvG players drops enough to where bugs won't be revealed. I think that it's important to note that:

1. The hard core GvG people and HA players (the bug showed up there, too) are always chomping at the bit to be the first ones to discover the capabilities and best uses of new skills. Any little edge they can get with the "new toys" will be diligently sought by every guild that wants to climb that ladder.

2. A locked ladder gives guilds a free pass to try out new skills & strategies. If they work, YEAH! If they don't - no harm, no foul. All the while, when bugs show up, if the exploiting guild wins with it, they may not report it, but the team on the losing end sure will!

Because of these 2 things, I can't see that A-Net would not have enough players participating in GvG during ladder locks and HA to give the new skills a good shakedown.

dgb · Sep 25, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

I'd like to comment on something: Locking the ladder during the Beta Test sounds like a poor idea to me. During the events, we're able to have tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people try out the skills, reveal the exploits, and generally help us make a better game. They get the fun of an early look, and the interest of seeing how things are and, upon release, what they become.

To lock the ladder during an event sounds counterproductive to me. We want and need people playing PvP, and locking the ladder will discourage that.

Hmmm... maybe the answer is some sort of "event ladder" that has no impact on the overal system. So if you find an exploit, good job, but it's not going to give you a leg up on a championship or a fast run for a trophy.

I just don't see where locking the ladder is the best idea, for it seems that the number of people playing will drop dramatically, which means we'll have less testing and less feedback.

There's a lot of sense here, but also there's a strong counter. I've said on at least three different occasions "don't GVG or if you are going to use a smurf because the meta is (insert overpowered at the moment)". A lot of people like to GVG just because hey you've got a fun game. I'm in an Australian guild and we've got an American who wakes up at 3am for that reason alone, despite realistically accepting that we're not going to make the top 50, but that doesn't matter, people like GVG and would do it ladder lock or no.

Additionally active season means you don't want to try new builds too much. I'm sure the first IWAY was laughed at (no monks, how you going to do anything with that???) but it's a reasonable build, it just had to be tried. Good luck getting someone to try that in an open ladder though (I know I'm crossing HA and GVG here but the point still stands).

I also would GVG as much as I could simply because I want to unlock as much as possible - I don't think it's as big a problem as is made out to be, maybe put rewards at the end of a preview ladder anyway, top 50 = UAX or something to shoot at that's relatively harmless (realistically ~800 people getting UAX isn't going to hurt anyone).

EDIT: There's your answer, double faction gain or half faction costs on all new skills - people will get access to the skills more easily so they can find whats broken and there's an incentive to play. I'd play in a locked ladder just for the unlocking potential.

Perth68 · Sep 25, 2006, 03:37 AM // 03:37

option number one, because it isnt a tournament season, the hours of the abuse were short so the ladder isnt ruined, other skills being broken before were dealt in this fasion ( dust trap and vengence are two that come directly to mind).

a ladder lock in a preview event would probably be a good idea if you slightly increased faction for gvg to make up for the drop in interest. A locked ladder also would make me people willing to experiment with the new skills as running a possibly weak and new build wouldnt create a drop in rating.

B Ephekt · Sep 25, 2006, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Counter FTW?? Find a counter skill that renders the build useless, job done.

No pvp experience ftw? You do realize that most of these teams brought 7 or 8 copies of the skill, right? So, what, you need to bring 7 or 8 copies of Ignorance, Signet of Humility or Rust just to avoid being instantly beaten? That's a pretty ridiculous notion...

The problem wasn't that counters didn't exist, it's that the skill was so broken that it wasn't able to realistically be countered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

Making the GL a "prime" target would be good for GvG.

Not really, it would take all the fun and tactics out of it. If you want to pvp where you can just run in and kill stuff without regard to team movement or strategy go play RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Wow, Flame more >_>

I'm pretty sure a flame is a personal attack, so I'm not really sure what you're on about.

-Loki- · Sep 25, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Admins Bane

I fail to see how this was an "exploit" the teams used skills that were there to be used.

Quote:

You will not exploit any bug in Guild Wars and you will not communicate the existence of any such exploitable bug (bugs that grant the user unnatural or unintended benefits) either directly or through public posting, to any other user of Guild Wars. Bugs should be promptly reported via "Ask a Question" at http://support.guildwars.com.

The skill did not work as intended. The skill description read:

Signet of Might
Elite Signet. Target allied summoned creature's attacks deal 10...26 more damage. After 10 seconds, that creature is destroyed.

Seeing as the spirit dieing under this effect killed the enemy guild lord if it was in range of the spirit, not only was it practically uncounterable, it was not it's intended effect in any way whatsoever. Thus, it was a bug. Unless you are mentally retarded, you would realise it was a bug. The rules state exploiting abug is a violation of the rules. Guess what? They were exploiting it.

Zonzai · Sep 25, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

I disagree with everyone who says that ANet should have found every possible ladder effecting bug/glitch/exploit before the BWE. If that were the case then it could just as easily be said that they simply shouldn't have any BWE's.

ANet has ALWAYS held the position that they will use BETA TESTS as BETA TESTS and not as final products. Just because open betas are just publicity stunts for other developers, does not mean that ANet should be forced to treat them as such.

For these supposed PvP'ers that supposedly complain so much about the alpha testers to have their way there simply would not be any beta tests. Instead we would have nothing but final products. I am willing to risk the possibility of losing my place on the ladder in order to have a real beta test. In my experience it's not the real championship contenders that complain but the people that think they are contenders and aren't. (For the record, I do not claim to be a contender myself and it may be that's why I'm willing to risk losing my place of a hundred or so when those in the teens aren't.)

As far as having a ladder reset or locking the ladder goes I am all for it. and if I remeber correctly, and I may be wrong, the ladder was either reset entirely or rolled-back shortly before or after Factions went live.

dargon · Sep 25, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I'd like to point out, that the moment the teams using the glitch reached rank 100 or below, they were getting between 750 and 1k faction per win, with each win taking a little over a minute, lets do the math.

Start GvG and wait for opponent - lets say 1 minute
Win GvG - approx 1 minute

at that rate, these guilds were pulling in between 20k and 30k faction PER HOUR, that's about 20x the normal rate. Whether or not the skill says it does action X and you determine that it's action Y, if you don't report it and you do take advantage of it, then it's an exploit, plain and simple. Don't like it, or any potential consequences that are upto ANet, then don't do it, IT'S THAT SIMPLE.